The Not-Secret Strategy to SEO Success

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In my latest episode, I sat down with Bernard Meyer, the head content strategist at Omnisend, to discuss the intricacies of SEO and content marketing. This episode is a treasure trove of insights for bloggers looking to drive traffic and convert visitors into loyal customers.

The Not-Secret Strategy to SEO Success | MiloTree

Table of Contents

Short-Term vs. Long-Term SEO Truths

Evolving Nature of SEO

Bernhard explains that SEO is constantly evolving. While some tactics may be effective in the short term, others remain relevant over time. For instance, the importance of decorative images in blog posts has diminished as user behavior shows a preference for valuable information over visuals. This led his team to remove unnecessary images, resulting in improved user engagement metrics.

Creating Valuable Content

Bernhard stresses the need for bloggers, especially in the food niche, to provide useful information upfront. He advises against lengthy introductions that distract from the main content. Instead, bloggers should dive straight into essential details, such as ingredient choices and cooking techniques, to enhance the reader’s experience.

Show Notes:

Google’s Role in Driving Traffic

Addressing Traffic Fluctuations

Bernhard reassures listeners that Google remains effective for driving traffic, despite concerns about fluctuating traffic due to updates. He emphasizes the importance of creating high-quality, relevant content that meets user intent. Websites that experienced traffic drops often had outdated or low-value content, highlighting the need for consistency and long-term planning in content strategy.

Omnisend’s SEO Strategy

Bernhard shares how Omnisend has grown through a smart SEO strategy focused on alternative keywords. By creating content around terms like “alternatives to Klaviyo” or “Mailchimp alternatives,” they attract targeted traffic from users actively seeking solutions. This approach not only drives volume but also brings in quality traffic that is more likely to convert.

Understanding the Audience

Knowing Your Audience’s Needs

A key takeaway from the episode is the importance of understanding the audience’s needs. Successful content marketing hinges on knowing where the audience is in their buyer’s journey and providing the right information to guide them further down the funnel.

Content Consumption Trends

Bernhard observes that while attention spans may seem shorter, the real issue lies in the quality of content available online. He encourages bloggers to focus on delivering concise, valuable information rather than adhering to arbitrary word counts.

SEO as a Business Strategy

Beyond Technical Requirements

Bernhard emphasizes that SEO is not just a technical requirement but a vital part of a broader marketing strategy aimed at building a brand and connecting with customers. The goal should be to create content that resonates with the audience, fostering a memorable connection rather than merely providing information.

Quality Over Quantity

In the current landscape of content creation there is a significant amount of material that is generated using AI tools like ChatGPT. Bernhard refers to this as “content pollution,” where low-quality, unedited articles flood the internet. He stresses the importance of producing high-quality, engaging content that stands out in a crowded market.

Long-Term Perspective

Patience in SEO Success

Bernhard shares that SEO success often requires patience. He shares experiences where well-crafted articles took months to gain traction, reinforcing the idea that consistent, quality content can eventually lead to higher rankings.

Content Strategy and Keyword Research

The duo discusses the importance of a strategic approach to keyword research. Bernhard suggests starting with core topics relevant to the audience and then breaking them down into more specific articles. He advocates for creating a comprehensive content brief before writing, which includes sections, keywords, and relevant statistics to guide the writing process.

Updating Existing Content

Maintaining Relevance

Bernhard notes that updating existing articles is crucial for maintaining relevance and improving rankings. Many bloggers fail to revisit their content after publication, which can lead to missed opportunities for improvement and visibility.

Understanding Google’s Algorithm

The conversation touches on insights gained from a leaked Google algorithm document, which confirmed many SEO experts’ beliefs about ranking factors. Bernhard highlights the importance of backlinks, user engagement, and the age of a website in determining its authority and ranking potential.

Building Authentic Links

Acquiring Authentic Backlinks

Bernhard explains the significance of acquiring authentic backlinks. He shares strategies for bloggers to collaborate with others in their niche, providing valuable content that can be shared across platforms. This not only helps in gaining backlinks but also enhances brand visibility.

Targeting Low Competition Keywords

The discussion shifts to the strategy of targeting low competition, long-tail keywords, especially for newer websites. Bernhard advises bloggers to focus on these keywords to build authority and gradually work towards more competitive terms.

Social Media as a Distribution Channel

Leveraging Social Media

Bernhard emphasizes the role of social media in distributing content. While social media links may not carry the same weight as traditional backlinks, they can drive traffic and signal to Google that users are engaging with the content.

Brand Visibility and Authority

The episode concludes with a discussion on the importance of brand visibility. Bernhard shares insights from his experience at Cyber News, where impactful research led to increased brand searches, ultimately boosting the entire website’s authority.

Final Thoughts

Creating Value for People

The key takeaway from the conversation: the importance of creating content for people rather than for search engines. Bernhard echoes this sentiment, stating that Google is evolving to better understand human behavior, and the best strategy is to focus on providing genuine value. He encourages content creators to embrace their unique voice and perspective, as this authenticity can set them apart in a crowded digital landscape.

Building an Email List

Bernhard underscores the significance of building an email list as a direct connection to the audience. Relying solely on social media or search engines can be risky, as changes in algorithms can drastically affect visibility. By nurturing an email list, creators can maintain a loyal customer base and ensure consistent communication.

Consistency and Patience

There is a need for consistency and patience in content creation and SEO efforts. Bernhard shares his experience with Omnisend, illustrating that significant traffic growth takes time and dedication. He encourages listeners to focus on creating quality content that resonates with their audience, rather than seeking quick wins.

By focusing on creating meaningful content, building relationships with their audience, and maintaining a long-term perspective, listeners can navigate the complexities of the digital landscape and achieve sustainable growth.

Other Related Blogger Genius Podcast episodes You’ll Enjoy:

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#347 Transcript: The Not-Secret Strategy to SEO Success

Jillian Leslie 00:00:06 Hello and welcome back to the Blogger Genius Podcast. I am your host, Jillian Leslie. I’m founder of Catch My Party and MiloTree. So MiloTree, we sell a suite of tools to help you grow your audience and monetize your audience through digital products. Our tool, MiloTreeCart is the easiest way to sell anything digital. Like that e-book you’ve been planning to write? It is almost Q4. It is time to tap into that income stream, and it’s so much easier than you think. In fact, get on a free 20 minute strategy call with me. We can talk about how to do it. Go to milotree.com/meet in today’s episode, I am thrilled to welcome Bernard Meyer. He is Head Content Strategist at omniscient, which is a leading email service provider. Now why I asked Bernard to come on the show is because omniscient has successfully used SEO and blog content as their primary strategy to drive traffic to their site and convert their visitors into customers. This is something, as bloggers, we all want to do.

Jillian Leslie 00:01:22 In the episode we talk big Picture. What are the trends in SEO and content marketing today? Are there any secret tactics you can use to drive traffic? And then we get really granular. We talk about how Bernard thinks about crafting a blog post or a hundred blog posts. If you’re feeling discouraged, I think this is an episode that will make you feel more hopeful, because we talk about how it is really possible to compete against this proliferation of AI content just by doing some really basic things. I think you’re going to really like this episode. So without further delay, here is my interview with Bernhard Meyer. Bernhard. Welcome to the Blogger Genius podcast.

Bernard Meyer 00:02:13 All right. Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to talk to you and your audience about some of the stuff that they can do in SEO and content marketing.

Jillian Leslie 00:02:21 So we have been having this long chat and I feel like we are now best friends, so I just I just want to lead with that. because you’ve led this very interesting life.

Jillian Leslie 00:02:31 You’ve lived all over the world. You are now in Eastern Europe and you’re working for Omni Send, which is an email service provider. that is based where you are in Vilnius.

Bernard Meyer 00:02:46 In Vilnius, Lithuania, capital city of Lithuania.

Jillian Leslie 00:02:49 Awesome. And you also have offices in the United States as well.

Bernard Meyer 00:02:53 Yeah. So we have an office in Charleston, South Carolina.

Jillian Leslie 00:02:56 Okay.

Bernard Meyer 00:02:57 And we have some people working in the UK and around the world.

Jillian Leslie 00:03:01 So you, you you’ve lived in the US. I think you’re an American citizen and and now you’re overseas. And I would love just a short explanation of how you got to where you are.

Bernard Meyer 00:03:15 All right. Usually I have to give people quite a long one because they they usually ask me, how did I get here? And it takes a little bit, but, I graduated college, and then I went to Miami, back to Miami. And it was around 2009. And there was the, the, the the recession, the Great Recession. And I had a choice either stay and work again at Starbucks or go abroad and try my luck teaching English, because all he needed was an English degree from a US college, a university.

Bernard Meyer 00:03:44 And so I did. I found only one job. It was a job in Mongolia, in the capital city called Ulaanbaatar. Wow. I applied, one day and then next day, the director of the school called me, and then three weeks later, I was on an airplane to the capital city. Didn’t actually know where it was, but I went there anyway. I stayed there for one year. It was challenging and as I was getting ready to leave, my brother had come here to Lithuania and so I, he invited me come over because I wasn’t really ready to go back to Miami. So I came, to check it out to, to to travel a little bit. And then I met my wife, or at least the woman who would be my future wife. And so I decided to start writing content for some, some people just freelancing, and they working in some tech companies here in Vilnius. And that eventually became full time when I found a job as a head of marketing for invoicing company.

Bernard Meyer 00:04:40 Head of marketing is really relative here. I was the only person in my department, so it’s just me marketing. and from then on, actually, I, I, I saw a job, at omniscient for content marketing manager. I joined. I stayed there for a year or so. I left, I went to another tech company here, Telenet. I stayed there for about two and a half years. and this is actually around this time is when I got most of my SEO education, because within Amazon, it was a really small marketing team at that time, and I was doing content marketing, management and SEO at the same time. At the same time, I had a full blog, that I did with my wife. it was also just for me to get more experience with SEO. So we launched it on WordPress and we had to do all this keyword research. Ahrefs was luckily it was at that time. And then within my testing it, my little career there, we launched a website, from scratch called Cyber News.com, which was absolutely nothing, when we started.

Bernard Meyer 00:05:42 And then two years later when I left, it was one of the top cybersecurity media publications. And so, again, you learn quite a lot, a lot about scaling, a lot about what works and what doesn’t. And now that I’m back at Omni and I’ve been here for three years, so in total four years, but my second round has been three years. We do a lot of work just creating content, managing a content team. We collaborate with the SEO team, so we try our best to continually increase the amount of traffic that’s coming to the website. But not just traffic, but quality relevant traffic that we can actually use, that people that actually want the information that we’re willing to share. there’s a lot of stuff that we learned along the way, a lot of lessons that are true for a short amount of time, and then they’re not true anymore. And a lot of stuff that actually is long term truth.

Jillian Leslie 00:06:32 Oh, okay. I have to stop you there. I have to stop you there.

Jillian Leslie 00:06:35 What are these short term truths and what are the longer term truths?

Speaker 3 00:06:41 A lot of the short term stuff that.

Bernard Meyer 00:06:43 We we used to do, I remember in 2015 or so, it was extremely important for you to have something very small technical, like a featured image or some sort of, you know. Yeah, you just needed to have what was it? One image for every 300 or 400 words. It was something along those lines. And we went with that for a long time. And then and then as well. And until we realized that, actually, no one cares about the images, no one cares about the featured image. When you look at Hotjar, when you look at, you know, user tracking and heatmaps, people are scrolling down immediately. They’re looking not so much for images. They’re looking for information. If the information is visual, it’s good, but not necessarily. It could be bullet points. It could be anything that’s really scannable. and so about two years ago, we just deleted, featured images from our website completely.

Bernard Meyer 00:07:34 And a lot of the, the logic from my side was that if the user behavior does not change, this would be good because it takes a lot of time from our own resources to create these images that no one actually cares about. So if nothing changes, this is good Things change, of course. Actually, I think, on site, time, the average time on site increase, I think. User sessions. Yeah. Average wages possession increased as well. So a lot of things, they had some small increases. And so we saw that this was actually a good thing to remove what I would call decorative stuff and just focus on. Yeah, focus on any.

Jillian Leslie 00:08:14 You’ve got a blog post. Do you have any images now in that blog?

Bernard Meyer 00:08:18 We do. But those are only the what I tell to the team is that we should not add any visuals that are only decorative. We should only add the things that add value. So if you already describe something in the text and you’re adding an image that says the same thing, it’s better not to add that image.

Bernard Meyer 00:08:38 But if the image is going to add another dimension to the things that you mentioned within the text, then that image has a place. So you have to kind of defend it.

Jillian Leslie 00:08:47 So let’s go back to putting on your food blogger hat.

Bernard Meyer 00:08:51 Yeah.

Jillian Leslie 00:08:52 If you were to create a post with a recipe. You know, I’ve heard a variety of things about that, which is you should have only the images that make sense. Like you shouldn’t have four different images of different angles of your finished cake. But if you’re going to do something complicated or somewhere kind of your same thing, you should have an image. Should you have an image, say, of your ingredients? Or do people not care about for this.

Bernard Meyer 00:09:19 One, it’s completely on the opposite side and because people want to see the food. So for me, like a featured image on a blog post, it just this is the final result you’re going to have and you kind of want to see it first. And you read the title, you the name of the recipe, and then you want to see the image as quickly as possible.

Bernard Meyer 00:09:35 So for me, for that one, you definitely need a featured image because the reader wants it. It’s not that you’re adding decoration there, but and this is a mistake I made sometimes I would add 5 or 6 different angles of the same food. No new information is being shared. It’s not a it’s these are not steps. These are not 1 to 3 how to do it. These are just the same food finish results from different angles. so I think those kind of images don’t make a lot of sense. But if you’re doing a process and if it’s a complicated process, then I think definitely you should add it. And for me, I when I, go through recipe like food blogs and I’m looking at recipes, those are the things that I want. I want to see how to do it. I usually I go down, I look at those images, the process images, and then the thing that I find most valuable is when there’s a video that shows me the entire steps, and then I can just skip down to the recipe and watch the video again while I’m reading the recipe.

Jillian Leslie 00:10:31 Interesting. Now, when you were talking about the things, though that are still true, that have been true from the beginning and are still true today, what are those?

Bernard Meyer 00:10:42 In journalism they call it don’t bury the lead here. We call it. Just don’t waste time in the beginning. And this is one thing that I think a lot of food bloggers, sometimes they still get wrong. They talk a lot in the beginning and they get crucified on Twitter for that kind of stuff. Just give useful information about the recipe that you that your, your, your writing about. So sometimes food bloggers think that they need to write 500 words about the context of the day in which they created the food, rather than really important information about the food. You know what kind of cocoa powder to use? What is the difference between this cocoa powder? Dutch processed cocoa powder? What is the difference between this kind of utensil or this kind of Tencel? You know, those are the things that are important. They are about the food.

Bernard Meyer 00:11:27 Well, they’re related to the food, but they help add a lot of value to the reader when they’re trying to understand how to cook the food or what they need to know about the food in order before they start cooking. So I think that kind of stuff is really, really important. So it’s important not to to spend too much time preparing someone or adding a lot of context, but it’s better just to dive in immediately and then continue to add value throughout the article.

Jillian Leslie 00:11:54 Here’s my question I bet a lot of people listening to this interview are thinking, yeah, but you know what? Like Google doesn’t work for me anymore, or my traffic took a hit or like I. Now Google is rolling out their eye. So does Google still work at driving traffic?

Bernard Meyer 00:12:16 Google does work. I, I know that when the core update came well, it came in a few series. definitely in November and January, perhaps. There was a lot of chatter online about the types of websites that got hit and definitely was true.

Bernard Meyer 00:12:32 You looked around and you saw that, you know, on Ahrefs, the the traffic just dropped. But when people began digging into what kind of websites these were, and what kind of content they were creating. Not a lot of them were very valuable. And I think that Google does get a good amount of hate, and I understand it. I definitely think there’s reason to to criticize them, but I don’t think that this is necessarily Google sweeping away the bad with the good sometimes there was some of the content that was created was just not that great, or they were not optimized or they were outdated, perhaps, or they just didn’t have good user behavior on the page. Maybe no one read it, or when they read it, they clicked on the link from SERPs. They landed on the page and then they went back. These are kind of signals that tells Google that perhaps this is not the best, the best page for the user intent. So I think that it is easy to get disheartened.

Bernard Meyer 00:13:25 But I one of the in content marketing, we always say one of the things that separates the successful from the unsuccessful is just consistency. You’re looking at it as an average over a long time, not what happened this month or what happened last month. You have to have a six month plan. You have to have a one year plan. Two years. Okay. Now this is what.

Jillian Leslie 00:13:46 Sorry. Now I need to say that the reason why I ended up talking to you was because you guys at Omni Center, remember, you’re an email service provider. You’re like number two behind Klaviyo for ecommerce. You know, lots of e-commerce brands are using you to help them sell. And the way that you have grown on this end is not by blasting out ads. It has been through a very smart SEO strategy. Will you talk about how you’ve done that and what the lessons could be for people who want to use SEO to drive traffic to their blogs and websites?

Bernard Meyer 00:14:31 Yeah. So I think this one, one part of it is maybe a bit more specific to SaaS companies or tech companies.

Bernard Meyer 00:14:39 And another part of it. We can say it’s a bit more general. So I think the one that was very specific to us was that we went on these alternatives to keywords. So when a user is searching the title of Klaviyo, for example, Klaviyo raises prices. They want to find alternatives. So they type in alternatives to Klaviyo or another one of our competitors alternatives to MailChimp or MailChimp alternatives or any combination of those keywords are synonyms. So we began to create a lot of content around those keywords or those content clusters, just giving people alternatives, even including our own competitors in some of those keywords. so, for example, a cloud alternative article could include MailChimp. It could include, you know, Mellow Light or Bravo, all of these other competitors. whereas the MailChimp alternatives article could include Klaviyo as well. So we began to create that content, and we we saw that we were ranking highly for those keywords, and those are really targeted keywords, because those were the people who were tired of the competitor and they were looking for alternative.

Bernard Meyer 00:15:45 And we were always, of course, number one alternatives there. And so we began to get not just traffic in terms of volume, but quality traffic, traffic that is going to be lower further down the funnel and more willing to, to, to, to, to convert, I guess to our side. So that one was very specific. And that’s one thing that I think if it makes sense for the industry, definitely go well for.

Jillian Leslie 00:16:07 Us with my little tree cart that is like, you know what we on our roadmap like, meaning we have that where we’re going to kind of do those MiloTreeCart versus ThriveCart, MiloTreeCart, SamCart versus stand store versus low desk versus all of these other competitors. That or, you know, ConvertKit, because you can sell with that and like what the pros and cons are. So that makes a lot of sense.

Bernard Meyer 00:16:38 Definitely. And you know, one of the things that I always mention is that we don’t take low roads here.

Bernard Meyer 00:16:44 We don’t. We present honest information. We’re not we don’t hate our competitors. They’re just competitors. That’s it. You know, we don’t play the dirty game. Everything that we’re saying is honest, and we ensure we make sure that we keep the content updated. In case one of the things that we said was negative about the competitor turns positive, then we have to say, okay, now they improve this and it is actually a good job. If you want that, then it makes sense. So I don’t know if this plays. There’s no data from our side that says that this is necessary for SEO. But it’s one thing that we don’t want to lie. We don’t want to misrepresent our competitors. You know, they are not bad people. They’re just competitors. And we make logical arguments why we are better. but at the end, you know, we always say that we’re not being aggressive here. The best thing to do is, of course, both of us have free trials to try us both out and see which one makes sense.

Bernard Meyer 00:17:39 That way you can see the things that we’re saying in this article is actually true. So I think that one is important for us for many reasons. And I think one of those. I have no proof, but I feel like this is one of the reasons why maybe Google does prefer us for some keywords, because they can see that there’s a match between what we’re saying in our articles and what other people are saying when they provide reviews for our competitors. And it’s the same thing for our videos as well. We, we we started working on YouTube SEO, and when we have these competitor videos, alternatives or comparison videos, we have the same success we’re seeing. We’re beginning to see at least the same success. So a lot of the conversions are coming from MailChimp alternatives Klaviyo alternatives, and we’re presenting the same information. It’s harder to update a YouTube video, of course. And so that part is is is complicated. But generally it is one of the things that we saw working in one format. And so we’re we’re using it in another format now then.

Speaker 4 00:18:33 And so what then.

Jillian Leslie 00:18:34 For like a more general how would you generalize.

Speaker 4 00:18:38 This?

Bernard Meyer 00:18:39 it’s going to be interest. It’s going to be those I feel almost bad thing. It’s so general that you’ve probably heard it many times, but you have to understand your audience. You have to understand what it is that they want, that they need from you in order to achieve whatever it is that you want to achieve. Most of the time, it’s knowledge. They lack some sort of knowledge, they lack some sort of guidance. But you have to understand what the guidance is. And hopefully you also have that knowledge that you can give them good guidance. And if you don’t, you know, definitely you can research, you can use chat with you. We definitely we use it all the time. and just trying to figure out, okay, what first of all, what part of the funnel is my customer at, you know, where are they? Are they just absolutely new? Are they do they are they solution aware? Do they not know they have a problem.

Bernard Meyer 00:19:28 Problem where where are they at and what kind of content do they need in order to bring them further down the funnel. So again, it’s a focusing on the funnel but really focusing on the customer. What kind of information do they need and then creating content for them. Usually you have a lot to say. So this is actually a good thing because you’re going to be able to break that up into so much content and you can repurpose that. And a lot of people still love guides. They still love ebooks and PDFs and whitepapers and case studies. So I think really.

Speaker 4 00:19:59 Yeah.

Jillian Leslie 00:19:59 Do you feel like because people’s attention spans are so much more truncated, do you feel like people will read entire articles anymore? Do you feel like you need a video? Do you feel like it just needs bullet points because people are reading on their phones? Like, how do you think about somebodies behavior today versus say, even five years ago?

Bernard Meyer 00:20:24 I think from so we have, you know, heatmap recordings. Hotjar.

Bernard Meyer 00:20:29 Although I think we stopped using. But in case we.

Speaker 4 00:20:32 Were watching.

Jillian Leslie 00:20:33 How people.

Bernard Meyer 00:20:33 Yeah, we’re watching people.

Speaker 4 00:20:35 And how they.

Jillian Leslie 00:20:35 How they consume your content or your homepage. What are you doing?

Bernard Meyer 00:20:41 Oh yeah. So we look at how they’re reading a blog post. We look at them and how they’re navigating a landing page or anything like that. And what they’re doing is, in my opinion, the same thing that they’ve been doing for the last few years. They land on the page, they scroll down quickly, they do the little morsel thing. They assess in one way or another, and if they like what they see, they go back up and they start reading it. Maybe not from the absolute top, but from a point where they think that this is kind of the information that I need. or sometimes they just jump down to the part that is interesting for them. But I think that it’s I wouldn’t call it an attention deficit. I think it’s just people. A lot of the content has gotten worse on the internet.

Bernard Meyer 00:21:24 It’s gotten bloated. That’s why I mentioned just please don’t bury the lead. Give the value as soon as possible. Because people think I need to write 2000 words.

Jillian Leslie 00:21:34 And do you. Do you need 2000 words?

Bernard Meyer 00:21:36 You do not. You need as many words as you need in order to explain the solution to the problem or explain the problem.

Speaker 4 00:21:43 Now here’s the thing.

Jillian Leslie 00:21:45 I find that when you write for Google it, it’s kind of boring. It’s kind of it’s horrible. And is that true? Or should you be kind of jazzing up your writing? Does that matter?

Bernard Meyer 00:21:59 I think that. Your SEO is part of your business, right? It’s a it’s a strategy, a marketing strategy. I think the purpose of your marketing in general is to build a brand and to build a connection with your customers. So whether or not you’re jazzing up an article, it’s more about do you want to communicate a personality? Do you want to communicate something human to your potential, your target audience? I think the answer to that is yes.

Bernard Meyer 00:22:28 You want to build. You want the human connection. After all, you don’t want a reader just to read your article once, get the information and then forget you completely. It’s better for them to remember something about you, and it’s going to be easier now because so much content, unfortunately, is being created with ChatGPT, which is then not checked, not edited at all, and just published in mass. a lot of it is, you know, outsourced content from countries all over the world, and it’s not great quality. a lot of it is just bloated. pollution, content pollution is what I call it. And so that. Yeah. And so a lot of it does rise up in, in SERPs, and they get a little bit of time to shine. So I.

Speaker 4 00:23:10 Think long term.

Jillian Leslie 00:23:10 SERPs search engine results page. Yeah.

Speaker 4 00:23:13 So they’re showing.

Jillian Leslie 00:23:14 They’re, they’re, they’re ranking. So that content is ranking. Will it stay at the top or does Google really look find those gems that if you’re writing that gem, Google will ultimately surface it like, I think that there’s this crisis of confidence.

Jillian Leslie 00:23:31 I’m working so hard on my posts, I’m putting my personality in it. I’m doing everything I’m supposed to be doing. Will Google ultimately pay off for me?

Bernard Meyer 00:23:42 It will. It depends. It comes back again to how long term are we planning here? How how often are you checking your Google Analytics or whatever it is? If it’s every day to see the changes you’re going to, it’s maybe not the best behavior. I think you have a strategy. I have a plan that I’m going to do this for my customers, not for Google. For the next six months. I have a plan I need. I understand how to bring them further down the funnel, and I’m creating this content roadmap based on what the customer needs. And I need to service that customer, that potential customer. Let me say that, and that is it. Whether Google picks you up now or later, I don’t think that’s a question. I’ve had many situations. There’s many articles I can I can mention where we wrote, we spend a lot of time and money writing this big piece of article, and nothing happens for three months, four months, five months, and then it gets a little pick up in months, six months, silent.

Bernard Meyer 00:24:39 And then something happens in one tenth and it becomes our most popular article. And, you know, we update it from time to time. But there was no huge updates. It’s just we were going in the same direction and just updating the facts and making sure that everything there is is proper and correct and, you know, show some personality, some brand tone voice. and there’s no nothing that I can point to that said that this is the reason why Google decided to put it as the number one for this particular keyword. But that’s what happened. It just took some time.

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Jillian Leslie 00:25:50 You can get this at Milotree.com/freebieprompts. That’s Milotree.com/freebieprompts. Then make a bunch of them and test them and use MiloTree to offer them. And now back to the show. Now, how do you think strategically about keywords? One in terms of keyword research? Two in terms of dribbling those keywords throughout the post And then how you think about linking those keywords, whether it be to other internal articles or to external pieces like what is the what? I, what I’m looking for is kind of what is your overall strategy when thinking about creating a piece of content?

Bernard Meyer 00:26:42 That’s a big question. I think the core content, the one that’s going to be easiest for you to create in the first phase, is whatever the core solution it is that you’re providing to your customers, right? For us, it’s email marketing. So email marketing is such a big field that it’s very difficult to say that there’s an end to the type of content that we can create for email marketing, but let’s just say imagine that people want to find out about how to create a newsletter, because that’s one of the first things I want to do.

Bernard Meyer 00:27:10 So we go really deep into that, all the variations. So we have this big article called How to Create a newsletter. And then we can probably dissect that into small parts the design, the fonts. You know.

Speaker 4 00:27:22 One of.

Jillian Leslie 00:27:22 Those separate pieces of content.

Speaker 4 00:27:25 Or these separate pieces of.

Bernard Meyer 00:27:26 Content. we we used to lean a bit more heavily on content classes. Now we do it a bit less, so we see that it actually is maybe a bit more value. And having just adjacent articles rather than separate articles feeding into this one big, you know, mega article. that is one thing that I would say doesn’t seem for us to pay off a lot. it makes sense. It’s far better just to have separate articles. So one would be just the how to design a newsletter. Then another one would be how to do one thing or the other thing. And we put a lot of design if it if, if design is time is required. But we put a lot of effort into that.

Bernard Meyer 00:28:10 and so the keyword research starts off in there. And then we go to Ahrefs. We understand what kind of keywords people actually searching for. And then we figure out how to create articles around that, you know? But of course, it’s information that we already have. One other thing that we do is the Swat team. We work a lot, we focus a lot. And I don’t know if your audience has time for this, but to understand, to create a brief, a really in-depth brief about what you want to include in there before you start writing it. So you need a really great structure before you write it, which is going to make your writing much easier. So in there we include, the sections, the chapters, or whatever you call them, the keywords, the research, the statistics. We always try to include statistics in there, just and keep it up to date. So no statistics older than four years. or three years. and then all the images that we need to include that which again, probably related to statistics or examples of the things that we’re talking about.

Bernard Meyer 00:29:11 And once we have this brief, very well defined, 2 or 3 pages, then we send it out to a writer, either in-house writer or we use a freelancer. it comes back. We, assess it for quality. Understand? Firstly, does it match the brief? Secondly is a good English is a good writing. and then the team also goes and make sure that the linking is correct. So all we always link out to any research or any statistics or any surveys. that backs up the point. we link out to any examples that we see online. and then we link internally to relevant articles that can provide more information to the topic that we’re discussing, within this article. and then we, we, we upload and we publish. So do you.

Jillian Leslie 00:29:59 Have a certain like this needs to be at least a thousand words or there’s no.

Speaker 4 00:30:04 Limit.

Bernard Meyer 00:30:05 We we it would be a guidance 1000 to 1500 words based on the amount of information that’s already in the brief, we can see that it doesn’t make sense for this to be, you know, 600 words or it doesn’t make sense for this to be 3000 words because we don’t have that much to say.

Bernard Meyer 00:30:23 So based on the structure, then we define how many, how many, how many words should be in the article.

Jillian Leslie 00:30:28 And are you publishing articles every day? Are you updating article like what is your your kind of content strategy in terms of new content versus republishing existing content?

Bernard Meyer 00:30:41 I can say now, we have published content for so long that it doesn’t make sense for us to do 100% new content. So we’re I think at the moment we’re closer to 50, 50, maybe even 40% new content, 60% updating, because we have a lot of articles, I think, within the thousands. But if I were a newer website, I would definitely have much more new content because I have a lot of stuff I need to say maybe 70% new content, 30% updating content depending on the industry, depending on how much stuff changes. and the really important articles, I would definitely try to update that maybe every three months. or maybe even faster. It depends on how fast things change. But one of the things that I think people do miss is that they do not update content.

Bernard Meyer 00:31:25 They publish it once it doesn’t perform well, and then they just say it was a failure. probably it it is a failure now that you don’t update it, but Google’s Yeah. So you one of the things you mentioned was the, the leaked algorithm.

Speaker 4 00:31:39 Yeah. So from yeah, one of those.

Bernard Meyer 00:31:41 Things was how often content is updated. It’s one of the ranking factors. So this is really important.

Speaker 4 00:31:47 So when you.

Jillian Leslie 00:31:47 Read that when you okay. So remember Google had this leak and some truths came out where Google might have even said don’t do we don’t care about this, but they actually do care about it. What were your biggest takeaways from what you read about the Google algorithm leak?

Bernard Meyer 00:32:05 I think one of the things I was maybe it wasn’t surprised, it was just funny that SEO experts had been saying that this. These factors are very important. And Google has been saying, you know, they’ve been kind of denying it, kind of using vague language to say that it wasn’t important. Everyone knew it was important, but they kept denying it.

Bernard Meyer 00:32:25 And then when the scams came up, you saw that actually those things are important. You know, links are extremely important. Links. You need links. The article.

Speaker 4 00:32:33 Links link, internal.

Jillian Leslie 00:32:34 Links.

Speaker 4 00:32:35 Yeah.

Bernard Meyer 00:32:35 External links to your article. They are backlinks are important. and not just backlinks. you need click links. People need to click on the link. They need to visit your page and then spend some time on the page. Then this is a good link. There’s a good click. And then there’s of course bad clicks. when people go and they see, oh, wrong page. And then I go back, that could be a signal that your page is not is not serving user intent as it should. you need you know, the age of the website is important. Apparently. You know, people had been talking about sandbox for a long time that Google puts new websites in the sandbox. Everyone kind of understood that this is how they should behave, and this one shows that, yeah, people do.

Bernard Meyer 00:33:18 Google does put your website in some sort of host age. So what they call it, an SEO a long time ago mentioned that problem. You know, Google uses Chrome data to understand how good a website is to understand how a user behaves on particular websites. And this it’s there. So all of these things that came out, it was just more of a confidence booster that we knew this is the case. This was true. and Google denied it. But now we can see that, these are ranking factors. Of course, we don’t understand how important they are. We don’t know which one is the highest priority, which one’s the lowest priority. But it’s kind of refreshing that we were kind of we had a very good understanding. Yeah. Like it makes sense that when people Google kept saying all these other things are important. And SEOs just said, you know, backlinks, backlinks, backlinks, and.

Speaker 4 00:34:08 But it’s not just.

Jillian Leslie 00:34:09 Any backlinks. It’s like real backlinks where people are clicking. You can’t just like, go put a link to your blog somewhere that nobody’s ever going to click on.

Bernard Meyer 00:34:18 No. You need back in. Yeah. Back in my other jobs, we said clicked links are the important ones. when we were doing cyber news, for example, we had, say some research where we were doing cybersecurity research and it would end up somewhere on Forbes, and it was supposedly great, but nothing happened. But when we had a very good piece of research, I kind of went, let’s say semi-rural. And it was on Forbes top trending. there was a list of like the top ten trending articles on Forbes, and people clicked on those links. That’s when the article began to rank. That’s when we saw something happening within the search results page, when people clicked, when.

Speaker 4 00:35:00 They were just.

Jillian Leslie 00:35:00 Being on.

Speaker 4 00:35:01 Forbes. No, no.

Bernard Meyer 00:35:02 No, not just getting a backlink. Even able to dofollow, you need people to click on the link and then they visit and then they spend time on the blog post or on the landing page.

Jillian Leslie 00:35:11 So when you then I know for Omni send, a big part of your strategy has been getting links.

Jillian Leslie 00:35:20 Yeah. Authentic links.

Speaker 4 00:35:22 Authentic links.

Jillian Leslie 00:35:23 So explain if I’m a blogger, what does that mean for me?

Bernard Meyer 00:35:29 Again, this really depends on what kind of information or value you can provide another website. So for us we do a lot of research. We have a lot of statistics from our own users, and we compile a lot of different types of data, and we slice it and dice it in as many ways as possible by country, by, by industry, by size, all that kind of stuff. And then we send it out, or we use this as a way to get backlinks from other websites, because then we can say this is going to provide actual value to your readers. When they click on it, they’re going to see that this is really important. We provide them with some images and that kind of a little package. So that and even copy sometimes so that they don’t have to do much of anything except publish it and give us a backlink. also we work of course, with different we have collaborations with different plugins or different, apps or SaaS companies.

Bernard Meyer 00:36:28 And so we tend to, use each other’s research or we tend to collaborate on some marketing. So even if we are have a new integration, then we you can use that integration as a jumping off point for us to write articles for each other. So if I integrate with Zapier, well, we do integrate with Zapier. Yeah, we can write on Zapier blog. Something in-depth about how to use email marketing was Zapier because we are knowledgeable about this topic, and Zapier can write information about how to use connectors in our website. It’s interesting. And they are. Yeah, they provide value. We are providing value for each other’s audiences.

Jillian Leslie 00:37:04 It’s funny. So our first SaaS is our pop up app, our MiloTree Pop Up, which integrates with email service providers. And you guys reached out to us and said, hey, you were one of the only email service we integrate with you, one of the only email service providers to be as friendly and kind of like, let’s get on a call. And then ultimately we gave you content.

Jillian Leslie 00:37:32 So I think you link to us also, our MiloTreeCart integrates with Omnisend. But you were very I don’t want to use the word aggressive, but you were very persistent. Yeah. Persistent in working together.

Bernard Meyer 00:37:49 That is true. And I think it depends on your ability to get in touch with with with peers. I guess we can call it a the peers. within the industry, if you have a food blog and you’re doing baking pastries, Maybe you can collaborate with someone who’s who’s doing something else. Maybe they’re doing, you know, meat or vegetables or savory foods, and you can kind of find ways in which you can work together and provide value to the audience, not just linking to each other, but actually providing value to each other. So I think reaching out and trying to get in closer connection with the people within the industry, adjacent industries, I think this is really an untapped, resource that people don’t do.

Jillian Leslie 00:38:30 So one of the strategies that I feel became very popular was going after low competition keywords and creating content around that.

Jillian Leslie 00:38:39 And what is your thought about that? That’s a very different kind of strategy then. You know, I’m a baker and I’m going to bake all these different kinds of things like that. One feels more, I don’t want to say this like you are kind of leaning into gamifying the SEO piece of your business, and one feels more like I’m creating authentic content from my knowledge base.

Bernard Meyer 00:39:11 So this one, I think that if you are a smaller website or a new website, you need to go. You need to target low competition, long tail keywords, most likely right? You need to target stuff that other websites don’t bother because there’s like 20 visitors per month or even five visitors per month. and what you’re doing is you’re just building up authority in Google’s eyes, Google’s robotic eyes. But of course, if those are relevant keywords, you’re also giving, people something that they don’t have. They when they’re looking, then they have these long tail keywords or low competition keywords. It’s possible that there is no existing blog post or landing page that’s serving their needs.

Bernard Meyer 00:39:53 And so they’re having to, you know, kind of make it up with half assed articles or something that doesn’t really cover it. And they kind of go away. They end up not getting the information that they want. But if you if creating, content for these low competition or long tail keywords, then you are providing a self a service, building up your authority, getting starting right. You usually will start ranking for those low competition keywords before you start ranking for those high competition keywords logically, and you’re giving value to the to the reader. So I think it makes a lot of sense. And this is probably one of the first things you should be doing. Do not go after the high competition keyword difficulty, right? Like 35 and above. Probably not for you. You know do not go go towards the long tail ones. You can you can even get away with writing 500, 700 words, because you’re probably one of the only ones writing content for that. So just go straight forward, deliver the the the content, the valuable information, and then do a lot of those.

Bernard Meyer 00:40:51 Please do not just do five low competition keywords. You know, think in terms of 50 okay. Thinking consistency volume. Definitely.

Speaker 4 00:41:00 Okay. So go ahead.

Bernard Meyer 00:41:02 Like one of the things is that it’s like going viral on social media. You can create the same ish content, the same quality I mean different topics but the same quality content on social media. And one out of 100 will go viral. You don’t know which one it is, but you need to create 100 art, social media posts in order to get that one. So it’s the same with with with SEO. You need to really start thinking in batches. 50 events 100. If you have the capabilities over an X amount of time, one of those will hit at some point. You’re just playing a game of averages. Because all of those if they are quality Google will pick them up. It’s just a matter of time.

Jillian Leslie 00:41:47 And how do you think about social media as it fits in to your content SEO strategy.

Bernard Meyer 00:41:55 I think social media is good It for, distribution.

Bernard Meyer 00:42:00 definitely. You know, if you have an e-book X ways on how to cook with garlic. I don’t know why I’m so stuck on food, but I guess because I was a food blogger. But yeah, so I think, you know, you’re going to have a difficult time distributing it through se, through Google because, you know, it’s going to be on page ten or something. but if you have a social media audience, even 50 people, and they a good amount of those people want this kind of information. just drop a link in the comments and then people will click it and they will visit your page. And this is already, I believe, good. good. Signals to to Google.

Speaker 4 00:42:35 To Google.

Bernard Meyer 00:42:36 yeah. You know, links from social media. You know, of course, they’re not very valuable because people spam them 15 years ago. But still, when people visit your page and they behave and they they read your articles, this is a good signal, especially if they have Chrome.

Bernard Meyer 00:42:53 I think also brand visibility signals are important. So this is not looking at one particular page or one particular blog post. You’re looking at your brand in the entirety. this is what we saw on cyber news, actually, Cyber News.com, we would publish a bunch of research, and other, of course, commercial content, and they were not really ranking well. But when we released a study or release, an impactful research, we saw that the entire website began to jump higher in ranking. And the idea was that people went to Google and they typed in cyber news because they wanted to find out information about this company that’s providing research. They didn’t search for anything specifically. They were looking for our company, the same way. Now they will look for omniscient when they hear about it on social media, or they hear about it, you know, on Billboard or something. They Google your brand name. And this is bringing value to your entire website’s authority. So I think I was just kind of.

Speaker 4 00:43:55 This.

Jillian Leslie 00:43:55 Is kind of the idea even about zero click content, which means putting lots of content, say, on LinkedIn or Instagram, where you’re not looking necessarily for that link back to your site as much as you’re getting into the conversation. Yeah, somebody hears Omni send, they’re looking for an email service provider. They know of it because you’ve, let’s say, been posting cool stuff in your Instagram Reels. They then go to Google, type in omniscient. Google sees that and goes ding, ding ding. This is.

Speaker 4 00:44:30 Interesting. Yeah.

Jillian Leslie 00:44:31 Versus wow, you put that buried that link somewhere at the bottom of Instagram. You’ve annoyed me because you haven’t given me all the information and you’re like, oh, you want this information, you’re gonna have to click for it versus just provide it to me. And then you’re like my best friend. So then I go, oh, I like you. I’m going to go research you.

Bernard Meyer 00:44:54 Pretty much. Pretty much. I think this is again, this is a long term play, right? This is the long term brand authority brand reputation play.

Bernard Meyer 00:45:03 But this is something that you need to do for your business’s health in any case. And longevity build up your expertise in the eyes of your target audience. You know, if that means, again, working with other peers in your industry, if that means going on podcasts. I was wondering if that means attending conferences. within your your your your vertical, if that means doing a PR stunt, you know that that also works. Whatever you need to do in order to make yourself more visible, it’s going to impact your website because people are going to Google you immediately.

Jillian Leslie 00:45:38 So okay. Favorite SEO.

Speaker 4 00:45:39 Tools?

Bernard Meyer 00:45:40 We use Ahrefs. Do not underestimate ChatGPT or AI in general. Research used to take a bit long. it used to take long, in order just to. When you Google a. If you’re looking for behavioral study that showcases how people click on buttons in e-commerce stores, you know, try typing that into Google and seeing what comes out. It’s just a bunch of mess. You know? Google doesn’t understand what you’re trying to say and the articles you have to read through, they don’t give you a lot of information, and you’re spending hours to type that into ChatGPT.

Bernard Meyer 00:46:17 It’ll give you something back. It’ll give you the beginning of something, even the the valuable thing where it will link out to the actual research that you want or it will send you in the right direction. So I think, when you’re doing your research for your articles, it’s very, very useful to use ChatGPT, but probably for research only. so I think, yeah. Ahrefs. and we just do a lot of, you know, a lot of elbow grease. We go through, we we build these SEO briefs, we read competitor articles, we Google Sheets and Google Docs and Ahrefs and ChatGPT. And of course, you know, Google Analytics and Console, to measure and hotjar, to look at user behavior on the site. but I think that’s about it.

Jillian Leslie 00:47:06 Okay. So as as we come to a close, I want to kind of share what I’ve heard you say, okay, from this interview. And what’s interesting about it is I get on calls with people like you who are really smart at what you’re doing, and the advice you share is typically, there aren’t major secrets.

Jillian Leslie 00:47:32 What you’re saying is show up consistently. What you’re saying is put useful content out there for readers or people searching for solutions, not for Google. And then the goal is, if you’re serving people you know, Google will see that and Google will reward you for it. You talk about how you do want a consistent brand voice. You you aren’t trying to game the system. You’re not ragging on your your competitors. You’re actually being a trusted, player out there, trusted source. And that it is a you keep saying it is a long game and it is a long slog. Like, we talk about that a lot here. It’s like, yeah, you can use ChatGPT and that is helpful. But that’s not the answer. And what you’re saying too is your humanness can be your big competitive advantage, because a lot of people are going to write a lot of crappy stuff out there, and that if you could come up with something unique, something original, whether it be your voice, whether it be your collaboration, whether it be the way you see the world, that’s different from what everybody else is saying about the world.

Jillian Leslie 00:48:51 Those are the things that’s where you gain that advantage.

Bernard Meyer 00:48:55 Definitely. That being you is actually enough. It’s really basic. Sometimes I come back. I’m almost 40 now, and I’m just realizing all those boring, simple things that my parents told me. It’s actually pretty true. It just need a lot of experience to understand the depth of this simple or pretty straightforward advice. But once you do realize, actually, I overcomplicated this whole thing and find out who my audience is. Try to solve their problem and that’s it. I think one thing that an SEO expert or teacher told me, maybe seven or maybe it’s even ten years ago, was that Google is heading in a direction where it’s trying to understand human behavior as good as it possibly can. It is trying to understand how people actually behave, and that means that you need to write content, not for Google, because Google is moving away from some robotically easy to understand algorithm. They’re trying to be more complex as people are. So your best future proof, strategy would be right for people.

Bernard Meyer 00:50:06 Again, very straightforward advice, but Google is not going what worked five years ago for Google to game the system. It’s not going to work now. What is going to work is the same thing that’s been working for the last X millennia, which is writing, creating stuff, creating value for people. And I think this is where you really need to aim for. And again, you know, it’s not going to have some overnight success. It’s not a one week thing. It’s a long term strategy. Believe in what you’re doing. create value, be an expert in your field. if you’re not an expert, do the work. You know, do the work, do the work, do the work, learn more, become an expert and then give that value to your customers or your target audience, mostly for free. I think the last thing I would say, though, is I would even though I trust that Google is optimistically trying to become a better representative of human beings, I would still focus very much on getting my audience off of Google and off of social media and into my email list, because I want there to be a direct connection between myself and them.

Bernard Meyer 00:51:16 If Google decides to flip a coin and just crashes the whole website and no one can find my website anymore. I would still have 2000 contacts in my email list that can maintain my business, or they can spread the word to other people. So I would definitely try my best to find some sort of monetization strategy. Even if you don’t have it, find some sort of value in which you can exchange this thing and get people’s email addresses. And this is going to give you a direct connection to your audience that is extremely valuable. Old adage that says the money is in the list. That’s where the money is. It’s not in Facebook ads. It’s not in Google ads, not even on the SERPs. It’s in the list. If you build the list and you nurture your audience, even if they’ve never heard of you, you will get a great connection. You will get loyal customers eventually. So I think this is the number one.

Jillian Leslie 00:52:11 I agree by the way you are speaking. You are speaking to the choir, right?

Speaker 4 00:52:17 You are.

Jillian Leslie 00:52:18 I love that, Bernard. If people have questions for you, want to reach out to you or see what you’re doing, where should they go?

Bernard Meyer 00:52:26 somehow I be, I. You can find me on LinkedIn. From time to time, I have a viral LinkedIn, post. I don’t know exactly how that happens, but you can find me on LinkedIn. Just search for Bernard Mayer or Bernard G. Mayer. A middle name, or Bernard mayor. Omniscient. you can find me there, but if you are gonna remember it, it’s LinkedIn.com slash Bernard Mayer.

Speaker 4 00:52:50 Awesome. Well, I.

Jillian Leslie 00:52:51 Have to say, you have been very validating. Meaning I’ve learned a lot, but I love when I talk to somebody who says there’s no real secret.

Bernard Meyer 00:53:04 There isn’t.

Jillian Leslie 00:53:05 It’s so validating for somebody like me.

Speaker 4 00:53:08 Yeah. Confirms that other.

Jillian Leslie 00:53:10 People might find, like, oh, Bernard, share the secret. But you say, no, no secret. It’s in the work is, very reassuring.

Bernard Meyer 00:53:19 And I want to say that if you look at omnichannel comm in Ahrefs, you can see it’s not a one year, you know, uphill like straight up shot of traffic.

Bernard Meyer 00:53:33 It’s it took a long time. It took many years before we got to this good amount of traffic that’s coming in. And in those years we just kept it consistent. We just kept on creating content for our audience. So there is no secret all those we tried some stuff, those short term things I mentioned here and there and they worked a little bit, but they didn’t. They they gave us a spike here or there. But the things that I actually stuck and that actually kept us on the SERPs or gave us actual live human feedback when people said, I read your article, oh my God, it was amazing. People say now to me, you know, I saw your video and it helped me do this and that. So when you get that kind of feedback, I think that’s enough energy for you to continue keeping consistent. So I think consistency, consistency, consistency and a long term strategy and monetization would be the key points here.

Jillian Leslie 00:54:24 Well, I just have to say I’m so glad we’re friends and that I have a friend from far away.

Jillian Leslie 00:54:30 and I would love to invite you back at some point to kind of do a part two.

Bernard Meyer 00:54:36 definitely. Like I said, I love SEO, content marketing, any sort of value creation, brand building. I can I can probably talk about it for a long time. And maybe one day we can get to here to Vilnius.

Jillian Leslie 00:54:49 I would love it. Well, Bernard, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Bernard Meyer 00:54:54 It was great. Thank you so much for having me here. And I’m excited to see what you listeners think.

Jillian Leslie 00:55:00 I hope you guys like my episode with Bernard. I really did. My biggest takeaway is that there are no secret bullets. There are no magical things that you can do to all of a sudden drive all this traffic to your site. It is about providing really good content that will rise up, that Google will notice is good and will serve it to lots of people. I think things are less complicated than we make them. In fact, that is why we made MiloTree.

Jillian Leslie 00:55:29 It’s a way for you to have the tools you need to make money to sell to your audience, and to grow your email list and grow your social media followers. And it’s not complicated and it’s not expensive. And I’d love to show you the way. If you want to get on a call with me free. Just go to milotree.com/meet and we’ll get on a 20 minute call. We could talk about digital products and I will hopefully share the same thing that Bernard shared, which is there are no magic bullets. It’s really just about solving pokey problems for people who need solutions. That’s it again, go to milotree.com/meet. If you enjoyed this episode and you think a friend would also benefit from it, please share it. If you are enjoying the podcast, please review it on iTunes so other people can find out about it. I would be so appreciative and I will see you here again next week.