If you are interested in learning how to start selling products online and succeed, you must listen to this episode and read this transcript.
Welcome to The Blogger Genius Podcast brought to you by MiloTree. Here’s your host, Jillian Leslie.
Jillian Leslie 0:11
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to The Blogger Genius. If you are ready to take the plunge and start your online business, I’m talking to you. David and I just started a service called MiloTree Blog Start where we will set up your blog for you.
Technology can be tricky. Setting up a blog can be tricky. But we will make it so easy. We will optimize it, and we will set it up right. And then, we will be there for any technical help you need. So, you are safe with us. And then, you can take your blog and start building your online business.
I want to read something that somebody wrote who used our service. “Thank you, Jillian and David, for helping me get my blog set up, encouraging me every step of the way. Easiest process ever! A small price to pay for not having to spend hours trying to figure it out on my own.”
If that speaks to you, head to MiloTree.com/BlogStart. And if you have any questions, always reach out to me at Jillian@MiloTree.com.
For today’s episode, I am interviewing Emma Lee Bates. Emma is, I love this, she’s a marketing implementer. And what she says is she goes in to businesses, she finds out where the holes are, and she plugs them.
We have a really interesting conversation about selling online. We talk about how to set up your landing page, how to sell with emails, if selling is something you’re interested in, or something that you struggle with, or something that you want to learn more about, this is the episode for you.
I really enjoyed it. I think you will too. So without further delay, here is my interview with Emma Lee Bates.
Emma, welcome to the show. I am very excited to chat with you.
Emma Lee Bates 2:15
Oh, I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much.
Jillian Leslie 2:18
I found you because I ended up, and I don’t know when I opted in on your email list, and I feel like you provide so much value that I thought I want to talk to her and see what you’re all about and really what you’re seeing in terms of trends in online marketing and building funnels and that kind of thing.
Emma Lee Bates 2:40
Awesome. Awesome. Well, I’m really excited to chat with you. It was really fun to have you reach out.
Jillian Leslie 2:45
Oh, good. Okay. So, before we start, let’s step back, and why don’t you share your entrepreneurial journey and how you got interested in online marketing.
Emma Lee Bates 2:56
Jillian Leslie 2:58
Is that a big question?
Emma Lee Bates 2:59
It is a big question. It’s been quite the journey. I will go back to sort of the first real business I started, which was… Let’s see. I launched this; I think in 2011. I started baking gluten-free and vegan granola.
Jillian Leslie 3:18
Oh, funny. Okay.
Emma Lee Bates 3:19
How funny is that, right? And so, I started selling it at my local farmers market. It ended up being so popular. People were calling me the night before to make sure I reserve a bag for them.
So, the next thing I knew I was renting out commercial kitchen space and doing wholesale. I ran that for about four years. I guess I must have started in 2010. Anyway. In 2014, I ended up selling it.
It was really hard to be out every weekend and a lot of evenings to make the granola. I had two young kids. And so, it just didn’t make sense for my life anymore. But that was my first real taste of running my own business. I bootstrapped the entire thing. And so, I learned so much.
After that, I dabbled in a couple of other things. I actually then was diagnosed with thyroid cancer. And two weeks later found out I was pregnant with our third child. And so, everything just sort of got put on hold at that point. We dealt with all that.
I’m healthy now. My baby girl is a very healthy baby. And now she’s almost five, which is hard to believe. But then I was like, I really loved running a business and I wanted to jump back in.
I started a blog and started working as a virtual assistant pretty much right after my youngest was born. I’ve been doing it ever since. I love learning new things. I love sort of diving in and trying out stuff.
And so, it’s been a really sort of just self-discovery journey for me, the last few years. What parts do I love the most? And what more can I learn?
Jillian Leslie 5:14
I love that. I love talking to entrepreneurs, especially female entrepreneurs because this tends to be more with women than men, which is when going out on your own and becoming an online entrepreneur becomes a journey…
Not just in growing a business and hopefully a successful one where you could be making an income, but also one where you learn about yourself and you challenge yourself and you push through in ways that you never would if you’re in your typical marketing job at some large corporation because you’re out there and you are just juggling.
We talked about this right before I pressed record about how as online entrepreneurs, we’re all kind of flying by the seat of our pants.
Emma Lee Bates 6:02
Yeah. Yeah, it’s really true. I mean, I think you… Especially as you sort of start trying to build like a virtual assistant business or a service-based business, people ask you things.
And you’re like, “I don’t know how to do that. But hey, if you’re willing, I’ll go find out how and do it for you, you know.” And so, it does. It pushes you to sort of take that next step and learn that new thing.
Jillian Leslie 6:22
Yeah. And so, my husband is my partner, and he is very technically savvy. And I will have a technical question and his response to me – I want him to solve my problem – and his response is, Google it. Like, “I’m not solving this. Google it.
I could google it but chances are, if you were to go solve it, he’d be googling it. So, he turns to me and he’s like, you Google it. And if ultimately you can’t come up with a solution, I’ll jump in and help you.
However, like now, I don’t even ask him because I know what his act his answers going to be. And again, there’s something very empowering about the fact that if you’re smart, if you’re curious, chances are the answer will be out there, and maybe then it won’t be. You need to go test it out and see and learn for yourself.
Emma Lee Bates 7:07
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Jillian Leslie 7:09
All right, so let’s talk about then how… I have a variety of questions. One, are you artistic? Because it seems like you’re designing stuff?
Emma Lee Bates 7:19
Yeah, I love designing. I’ve never kind of dived into the real, you know, like, Photoshop or InDesign or any of those. I use Canva but I’ve always been really hands-on artistic. And actually, I have a degree in hand bookbinding. That’s what I like to speak for.
I’ve always loved the design aspect. And being able to sort of bring it into my business has been really fun.
Jillian Leslie 7:49
Okay. So, how would you describe yourself? If somebody says, “What do you do online?” What would you say you do?
Emma Lee Bates 7:55
That is such a good question. I have such a hard time answering that. I would say I’m probably a marketing implementer. I’m good at coming in and seeing kind of where the holes are in a business and then finding ways to plug them.
For example, recently I had a meeting with a blogger. She has products. She makes pretty good money, but she’d never set up a tripwire. And so, it’s like, “All right. So, here’s an easy way we could bring in some more money to your business.” “
So, let’s take one of your products or put together a small bundle of stuff and make a tripwire page. She’s getting multiple signups per day. It’s like an easy way to just add a little bit more to the bottom line for her.
Jillian Leslie 8:55
Right. Let’s step back and just explain what a tripwire is. In fact, I’m building this out on Catch My Party. So, what we’re doing is we give away a lot of free printables, and what we say is – for parties.
One of our most popular, of course, our Minecraft printables. We give them away for free. And so, what we did was we said, okay, we are asking for your email address in order to get the printables. Great. Good. That’s viable for us.
However, then I said, “Well, wait a second.” What I’m going to do is say, once you give us your email address, a page is going to show up instead. Your thank you page now is a sales page.
And it says, for $5 if you want the downloadable banner that says happy birthday and has an alphabet, so you can personalize it with your child’s name and age, put your credit card in, pay $5, and boom it’s yours.
Emma Lee Bates 9:50
Right. Right. And you already know that people are interested in those Minecraft printables and so up selling them on something, a little more customizable and everything, it’s like a really easy yes for them.
Jillian Leslie 10:04
Emma Lee Bates 10:06
To, you know, bring in a little extra money.
Jillian Leslie 10:09
And I’m not doing anything because it’s all automated. I do have to set it up but once it’s set up, you know. And let’s say I get one sale a day, and we’re getting definitely more but it’s like one of our most popular printable sets, but still, it just goes right into my bank account.
Emma Lee Bates 10:26
Jillian Leslie 10:30
So I love that. That’s an opportunity where you can just find… Almost like finding that money. And again, it’s always about delivering the right product at the right time to the right person.
So this person yesterday was not going to give me $5 but because all of a sudden in our inbox are showing up these free printables, and she’s throwing a Minecraft party, she is much more amenable to going, “You know what? What’s $5?”
Emma Lee Bates 11:03
Right. Right. Also, I think people get really involved with giving away free stuff. I mean that’s great. I love free stuff. But if you want to build a list of people who are willing to buy from you, having that tripwire prepares people that you don’t give everything away for free, that your expertise is worth something.
Jillian Leslie 11:26
Yes. It is like training your audience, and then you can see who purchased from you. And you know what? If they’re willing to buy something for $5, and you deliver on it, and they have a good experience, maybe next time, they’ll buy something for $20 or maybe $100 or whatever.
So you start to train them that this is not just like, Jillian gives everything away for free. But also, “Hey, if you like this, I’ve got this.”
Emma Lee Bates 11:55
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Jillian Leslie 11:57
So, let’s talk about it because I feel like one of your expertise is funnels.
Emma Lee Bates 12:02
Jillian Leslie 12:03
Talk to me about funnels and how you think about them. I know that’s a very broad question.
Emma Lee Bates 12:10
Yeah. I mean I really like funnels. I really like figuring out how to connect everything and what should go where, and then looking at, all right, what’s working and what’s not. I think people find funnels really overwhelming.
It feels like it’s something really big, but I mean, really just talking about a tripwire to your email is a funnel. That is bringing people into your list and preparing them to be customers.
So, I don’t think it has to be this big huge complicated mess where there are a million moving pieces. There are very easy ways to start building some funnels in your business that can make a big difference.
One of the things I think people freak out about is writing those sales emails and asking for the sale.
Jillian Leslie 13:03
Do you talk about that? Because to be honest with you, I struggle with that. I’ll tell you my struggle. My struggle is I get all of these emails from other people where they want me to know, like, and trust them. And they’re these incredibly long emails.
My instinct is I don’t want to write for when I’m selling stuff. I don’t want to write really long emails. I just want to get to the point. But I go, “Oh, but all these other people are writing these really long emails.” And what is your feeling about that?
Emma Lee Bates 13:45
My feeling is basically, if your audience knows you, if you are writing to them on a regular basis, and you’re sharing bits about yourself and being personable, you don’t have to write these super huge long sales emails.
You can write a paragraph at the beginning that just sort of introduces it and then ask for the sale. If your list has gone cold, if you haven’t emailed them in six months and you want to sell something, it’s a really different story. And you do have to build up that know, like, and trust factor again.
I mean I think as long as you are honest with your audience, and you are willing to tell them pluses and minuses for things that you can build a relationship that doesn’t mean you have to write these huge long emails.
I mean I also think too, if you always write huge long emails and all of a sudden, you’re sending three emails in a row that are just like, “Buy this thing.”, people are going to be like, “What is happening?”
I mean I would say my weekly email, it’s not that long. I write maybe five to seven paragraphs, but you know, I try to tell a little bit about what’s going on in my life and a little bit what’s going on in my business.
And so, every week people are getting those touchpoints with me and hopefully getting to know me. And so then, I feel like when it’s time to offer a product for sale, that I could be like, “Hey, this is this cool thing I’ve made. I’m going to tell you about it and I’m going to ask you to buy it.” And I don’t feel like it has to be this epic journey.
Jillian Leslie 15:20
Yeah, that’s it. Meaning, my life’s really busy. And when I get these long pitchy emails, I’m kind of a little turned off. Like, “What? I’m supposed to hear about your dog and the fact that there’s been a blizzard.” And not that I don’t care about you, but it’s just like, get to the point.
Emma Lee Bates 15:41
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think too the business to business world is people want the point.
Jillian Leslie 15:47
Right. Right. I think that’s a very good point but I think you might be right. If I am selling something like, “Hey, here’s my weight loss course.” Or, “Here’s my parenting course.”
You want to know, (A) if it’s a weight loss course that I’ve lost a bunch of weight and what that journey was like. Or if it’s a parenting course. You want to know the struggles I’ve gone through, so that you could say, “I relate to her. I want to buy her course.”
Emma Lee Bates 16:15
Jillian Leslie 16:16
But if I want to sell MiloTree, “Guys, you want to grow your social media followers a little faster. Here’s a great solution.” Like, you don’t necessarily need to know about the blizzard.
Emma Lee Bates 16:27
Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean I think part of that is just respecting your audience. Where are they? Are they at the point where they’re like, “I just need to know what you need from me? I have three million emails to go through today.” Or like, “I have some time. I want to read. I want to know what you’re talking about.”
Jillian Leslie 16:48
I bet you’ve read it but I get confused. Like, if you’re trying to sell me something business-related, that stuff I don’t care as much about. I want to know what you’re doing and why this will help me.
Emma Lee Bates 17:09
Jillian Leslie 17:10
All right. I like that. I like that. What are some of the best ways to ask for the sale?
Emma Lee Bates 17:16
Jillian Leslie 17:17
Tell me. Tell me.
Emma Lee Bates 17:19
I mean I think people get so scared of asking, of just saying, “I’ve made this. Please buy it.” They just beat around the bush and I feel like they never actually get out that sentence.
And then, the email’s over and people are like, “What am I supposed to do here?” Beat rap. Say, “This is the thing. This is how much it costs. Click this link and buy it now.”
Jillian Leslie 17:42
Do you need to say, “And this is how it will change your life.”?
Emma Lee Bates 17:45
Yeah. Tell them. What is it going to do for them? One of the things I say often is, people don’t really care about you. They want to know what you can do for them.
Jillian Leslie 17:56
Emma Lee Bates 17:56
And so, yes, you can tell your story, but male sure the point of the story is how this can be the same for the reader, that they can get the same results. Really focus on the after for them and not just the after for you.
Jillian Leslie 18:10
I love that. Absolutely. It’s like connecting the dots.
Emma Lee Bates 18:14
Jillian Leslie 18:15
So that you better believe my Blizzard story better be a way that helps you in your life.
Emma Lee Bates 18:22
Jillian Leslie 18:22
Because I’ve discovered this amazing shovel. And if you live in a cold climate, you’ve got to buy this shovel with my affiliate link because I was able to save my family in the blizzard.
Emma Lee Bates 18:33
Right. So, click here now to go check it out.
Jillian Leslie 18:36
Do you believe, in your email, you should be putting a button or you should be putting a big link? Just even logistically, how do you do that?
Emma Lee Bates 18:46
Yeah. I mean that’s going to be one of those things you need to test out. Do you do a naked link? Do you know a text that is linked? Do you do a button?
I think business to business audiences, they’re pretty savvy. And so, you can do just link to text. Whereas more regular consumer, they might want a button because they need a little bit more, you know, big in your face, this is what you click. So, it depends on your audience for something like that.
Jillian Leslie 19:22
I wanted to take a quick break to talk about how as bloggers and online entrepreneurs, the landscape is always changing. What you want to do today is really direct your visitors and your customers to where you want them to go.
I’m excited that we launched as part of MiloTree, so not only can you grow your social media followers on Instagram, and Facebook, and Pinterest, and YouTube, and get people to subscribe to your list from your pop-up, but we have another pop-up that we just launched, and it’s a custom link pop-up.
What that means is if you want people to see a certain piece of content on your site, you can link your pop-up to that piece of content, put an image in the pop-up, so that when someone comes to your site, they’ll be directed to go see that.
Now, let’s say it’s a piece of a sponsored post. You want to get eyeballs on it. That’s a great use case for the pop-up.
Let’s say you’re selling a product and you have a landing page or sales page. You could link this pop-up to that.
Let’s say you’re really psyched about your Tik-Tok account. Go link the pop-up to your Tik-Tok account. Wherever you want it to go, you can. And therefore, you start to gain control of your audience’s path.
Head to MiloTree.com, get your first 30 days free. You’ll see the custom link pop-up. Also, you have access to all the other ones. But I think this is a game-changer because I think we are going to see over the next six to 12 months, a real shift in how people make money online.
If you have any questions, reach out to me at Jillian@MiloTree.com. And now, back to the show.
Let’s say I’m a blogger and I’ve been putting out a lot of free content. I’m making money via ads, let’s say. And maybe some sponsored posts, and I want to start by selling a product. What do you recommend I start with?
Emma Lee Bates 21:34
I love Shopify. I feel like Shopify is easy to use. It’s got so many apps that you can add on as you grow to do different things. And you can start with a $9 a month plan or using buy buttons on your site so you’re not building like a whole shop on Shopify itself. And their checkout is so easy.
Jillian Leslie 21:58
So easy. And we’re getting used to it. We understand Amazon and feel safe buying on Amazon. And, you know, we might feel safe, let’s say buying on Etsy or eBay. I feel like the Shopify experience now is becoming something that we are also familiar with.
Emma Lee Bates 22:17
Yeah. Yeah. And Shopify is so great. I mean, they accept so many different ways to pay. I mean now you can use Apple Pay on there. You can set it up to accept PayPal. You can use the Shopify payment system to accept credit cards.
I feel like people get sort of stuck in this, like, only one way to pay solution where, you know, some people hate PayPal, and some people love PayPal. You need to offer a variety of ways to check out and that’s just something Shopify does really well.
Jillian Leslie 22:48
So now, what if I’m selling a digital good? Do you still recommend Shopify or is this like I’m making crocheted handbags?
Emma Lee Bates 22:54
No, I still do Shopify. I do it for all of my digital downloads. There’s a free app you can use so that the PDF is automatically delivered. It’s super easy for people. Yeah, no, I’m big on Shopify.
Jillian Leslie 23:09
And then, is there a way to add things like tripwires or additional bumps in sales, things like that?
Emma Lee Bates 23:16
There are. Those are some of the apps you can use. I can’t remember which one I use. I have like a suggested, you know, you might also like this app. I think once you’ve added something to the cart that’ll show up.
It’ll show you related products or you can do a banner across the top that’s offering something else, or you know, even sale coupon code or that type of thing to encourage people to buy more. So yeah, there’s a lot you can do in Shopify for that.
Jillian Leslie 23:56
Okay, that’s interesting. So in terms of what you sell and where you found success, what are your products? Because aren’t they mostly digital or all digital?
Emma Lee Bates 24:08
Yeah. At this point, they’re all digital. I’ve played around a little bit with using one of the on-demand printing services. I tried out I think like some journals and stuff.
Right now though everything is digital, and I use Shopify for all of my eBooks. And then, all of my courses are hosted on Teachable.
Jillian Leslie 24:31
Okay. How is that for you?
Emma Lee Bates 24:33
I really like Teachable. It has its quirks but I think all of these online course creation places do. I find Teachable, as a consumer, really easy to use.
I really like that you have one account and you can see every course that you are a member of from your one account, which doesn’t happen in many of the other programs.
So, I personally, as a consumer, really like teachable and that was how I made my decision that I wanted to go with it as a course creator as well.
Jillian Leslie 25:09
Okay. So, just briefly for the audience. Tell the audience what kinds of products you’re selling because my audience might be interested in that and what your course or courses are.
Emma Lee Bates 25:22
My main products all are about how to write really good sales pages. I have an eBook bundle that’s got an eBook and a workbook that is called the Quick Start Guide to Sales Pages.
It goes through a sort of basic template and how you would write your copy for that. And then, my course is called Sales Page Secrets. I use a method I’ve developed called Copy Blocks.
And so, you’re writing kind of individual blocks of copy and then putting together to create your sales page.
Jillian Leslie 25:57
Okay, that’s great. Now, can we talk sales pages?
Emma Lee Bates 26:01
Jillian Leslie 26:02
Again, I have this weird bias, which is I see a sales page even if it is like a b2b, business to business sales page. I feel like in this world, they’re real business to business pages.
I haven’t looked at it recently, but like I go to the Teachable page because I want to start a course and it will be a relatively short page to sell me on Teachable or Mailchimp or something like that. Like a tool that I might use.
However, when I see a sales page, typically with a female entrepreneur selling me something like a course, it tends to be one of these incredibly long sales pages with lots of videos, testimonials, how much value I’m going to be getting if I buy this course for $500, but really, I’m getting $25,000 worth of value.
So again, my weird bias is just show me how much this thing costs. I don’t necessarily want to read all of this stuff. But, am I wrong?
Emma Lee Bates 27:10
I don’t think you’re really wrong. I get so frustrated with the super long sales pages that go on and on and you have to scroll forever to find a button to find out how much it costs.
Jillian Leslie 27:23
Yeah. And by the way, to my audience, I would love to know how you feel about those sales pages. So would you email me when you reach to this point in the podcast at Jillian@MiloTree.com, and tell me your thoughts about the super long…
Again, I do want the information. I want to know how this product is going to help me. I do want to read testimonials. I might even watch a video but maybe not. I want to know how it has transformed other people’s lives.
I want to know if it’s really there. But do I need to keep scrolling and scrolling? I start to get annoyed.
Emma Lee Bates 28:03
Yeah. The theory behind a really long sales page is the colder your audience, the more information they need to be convinced to buy.
And so, if you are using Facebook ads, and so it’s a completely cold audience, it’s not retargeting or whatever, then you’re probably going to need a longer sales page because people are going to have more questions.
They’re going to need to know more information. They’re going to need to develop that know, like, and trust factor.
If your sales page is to, you know, your nice warm audience, from your email list of people who know you, you don’t have to do nearly as much. It’s good to have testimonials.
And it’s good to write about what’s inside and what the transformation is going to be but it definitely doesn’t have to be that mile-long sales page.
And the thing that really always gets me about the mile-long ones is I want a button at the top because I want to know if it’s even in my budget before I sign in finding out more about it.
Jillian Leslie 29:00
Yup. So, your recommendation is if you are writing a hugely long sales page… I like it when there are multiple buttons. I’ve scrolled down and now I’m like, “All right, I’m interested.”
I don’t want to have to scroll all the way down. You know, show me. I recommend putting multiple, I don’t know, even five buttons on a page.
Emma Lee Bates 29:19
Oh, absolutely. I do a button every two or three sections.
Jillian Leslie 29:23
Do you recommend putting different text in the button? So, it might be like, “Buy here.” or “Check it out.” or “Don’t miss this opportunity.” Those kinds of things.
Emma Lee Bates 29:32
Absolutely. I love playing around with button text and trying different things. Some buttons might have the price on it, or some buttons might have just an invitation to click. Yeah, I like to mix it up.
Jillian Leslie 29:45
Okay. Okay. What would you say some of the best copy is on your sales page? What do you need to convey in your copy?
Emma Lee Bates 30:03
I like to really talk to the reader. I like to talk about where they are now. I like to show them where they could be after purchasing the product or service.
I think it is really important to have some sort of testimonials, or case study, something that is going to show them some kind of outside perspective data. I think it’s really important to tell them what’s involved in the process, whether it’s a course, or a service, an eBook, whatever it is.
Tell them what is on the inside and what is going through that like. I’d love to know where the course is. Is it video? Is it text? How many hours is this going to take me? Is it self-directed? Is there a Facebook group?
I think answering those types of questions and really putting yourself in the shoes of the reader and thinking about, “Well, what would I want to know?” What is important to me as a consumer so that you can really think about what your reader is going to be looking for on that page.
Jillian Leslie 31:09
So it’s like thinking about the questions the consumer has, but also, where are their sticking points, where they are like, “I don’t know if I want this.” To go, “Oh, you do want this.” Like, I can anticipate your issues.
Emma Lee Bates 31:24
Yes. Yes. Thinking about their pain points and telling them how those pain points can be solved. That’s a really big thing on a sales page.
Jillian Leslie 31:37
Yes. Like, “Are you stuck with this?”
Emma Lee Bates 31:40
Jillian Leslie 31:41
I like that. I like that. Okay. And so, what would you say then some of the biggest mistakes are that people do when they’re writing copy?
Emma Lee Bates 31:50
It’s when they write all about themselves. Sharing your story is great. Don’t start at the top of the page with that because that’s not what people are looking for when they land on that page.
They are really looking for how can it help me. And that is the main question that you need to be answering and, jump in from the very beginning with, you know, “Here’s, where you are. Here’s what your pain point is, and here’s how I can help you.”
And then you can go into your story. You can go into previous clients or customer stories and show them how it’s helped other people. But really, the top of that page really needs to focus on the reader.
Jillian Leslie 32:29
I like that. Now, what about pricing? How do you figure? Because I’ve heard multiple things. I’ve heard price it at a price point people can afford because you’ll get more sales.
I’ve also heard, “Price it high because you want those high paying customers. Because they can afford it, chances are they can afford other products from you.”
And there is something to having skin in the game. If I buy a $1,000 course, chances are, I am going to invest a little bit of time in that course because I just spent $1,000 versus, I just bought a course for $19.
Emma Lee Bates 33:05
All right. So, this is going to get me into a little bit of trouble.
Jillian Leslie 33:07
I want you to get into trouble.
Emma Lee Bates 33:12
I think that the customer should always be the front of your mind. And if you are pricing your course in such a way that it is going to be difficult for people to afford it where they are now, that you’re not keeping your customer in the forefront of your mind.
Are there courses that are worth $1,000? Yes, because of where that customer is and how that can fit in with where they want to go. But I think there are a lot of people who are pricing their courses really high and then encouraging the consumer to go into debt to purchase them.
I don’t think that’s fair to the consumer. I think if you truly want to help people, then it’s not just about how much money you can make, but it is helping people where they are and pricing accordingly.
Jillian Leslie 34:12
Interesting. Yeah. But how is that getting you into trouble? Because I feel like that is really good advice.
Emma Lee Bates 34:20
Because there’s a lot of people who don’t agree with me. I have seen so many. Not to call out the coaching community because it’s not the only one, but I have seen so many coaches lately who they’re selling like $5,000…
Jillian Leslie 34:36
Emma Lee Bates 34:37
Mastermind groups or whatever. And they are literally telling people, “Well, you’re going to get such good results out of this. You can go into debt to join it.”
I can’t get on board with that. I just think that is wrong. If your client or customer is at the point where $5,000 means going into debt, then you’re not pricing your program accordingly or you’re not going after the right kind of clients.
Jillian Leslie 35:03
Do you feel though – because in our online world, reputation matters so much – do you feel like that will come back to bite them?
Emma Lee Bates 35:15
I kind of hope so because I feel like that’s kind of the only way that the world will adjust. I think there has to be some sort of backlash as to this is not the right way to approach selling your program.
We can have more of a conversation about it. I mean I think the pricing is hard, you know. I will not deny that. It is hard to make sure that you are getting both your value and providing help to the customer where they are.
It’s a fine balancing act, but I think that that push, “Your results are guaranteed. So obviously, you can go into debt to do this.” I really think that needs to be talked about. I think that needs to be more out there so that people know that it doesn’t have to be your only option.
There are people who are working with lower price points or are having different levels of services so that if you’re not at that $5,000 level yet, they’ve got a bigger group program that’s only $1500.
And, you know, that’s a much more comfortable price point for you. So why don’t you join that one? I mean pricing can be a touchy subject.
On Facebook groups, they are sort of a hard place to talk about it too, because I think it’s hard to know the tone of somebody else’s reply sometimes in the online world.
But I do hope this becomes more of a talking point and that people really address the fact that going into debt or being pressured to spend money that you don’t feel comfortable spending is not going to…
Like doing that, spending that money you don’t feel comfortable spending isn’t going to change your business. It’s the work that you put in.
Jillian Leslie 37:15
Absolutely. That was just what I was going to say. For example, with MiloTree. We have a big social media platform footprints. We use MiloTree and yes, if you have traffic to your blog, Milo tree will help you grow your following. It will work. It will work. But it is not magic.
So for example, people will sign up for MiloTree who’ve just started blogging and have absolutely no traffic. And I say very honestly, I can’t create traffic for you.
I can convert your traffic into followers and eventually, those followers can increase your traffic if you’re sending people back to your blog, let’s say. But there is no magic bullet. And just because you’ve spent $5,000 does not mean that magic happens. It’s you who create the magic.
Emma Lee Bates 38:15
Jillian Leslie 38:16
And then people talk about these launches, and they buy a course to learn how to sell a course. All of a sudden, they’re going to do a launch and make a million dollars. That does not exist.
Emma Lee Bates 38:32
I feel so bad for people who come into these Facebook groups and they’re like, “I just did a webinar. Only four people showed up and nobody bought anything. How do I actually sell my course?”
I just think there is this push that, “Hey, anybody can do this. Anybody can launch a course and sell it–.”
Jillian Leslie 38:50
Wait. Wait. Wait. No, but sell it for six figures. You know, that six-figure launch.
Emma Lee Bates 38:54
Yes, yes. And it’s like, no, you need an audience. You need to start with building up the people who are interested in what you have to sell. Just launching into space is not going to do anything for you.
Jillian Leslie 39:07
Right. So again, it’s like buyer beware. In fact, if anybody has a course they’re thinking of buying that cost a lot of money, email me. And I will give you my honest feedback as to whether I think this is valuable based on where you are.
Now, I agree. If you’re making seven figures, yeah, sure, go buy that thousand dollars or $5,000 course or join that $10,000 mastermind. But if you think that just by spending money, you will…
And then people will say you have to spend money to make money. But be mindful. If it’s too good to be true, it’s too good to be true.
Emma Lee Bates 39:47
Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of people who are doing really good work at a lower price point. Just because somebody has name recognition and a big price course, it doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s the best choice for you.
Jillian Leslie 40:01
So I was just listening to a podcast and they were talking about how certain medical procedures at different hospitals can vary drastically in how much it costs. Let’s say open heart surgery, and it could cost half a million dollars, or it can cost $20,000.
It’s not necessarily correlated to how good the doctors are or how good your outcomes going to be. I thought that was really interesting. And with courses, there’s an element of that, which is, you don’t necessarily know how great this course is going to be.
Let’s say the $2,000 course might not necessarily be 10 times better than the $200 course.
Emma Lee Bates 40:43
Right. Right. I mean going along with that, learning styles are so different. I really struggle with learning from video. I’m much better if I read and see screenshots than learning from video.
So you know, the $500 course might not be for me because it’s all video with no text. Whereas the $97 course because there are no videos, it’s only text, it’s cheaper, but actually I’m going to learn a lot better from it.
Jillian Leslie 41:11
Absolutely. Okay. Let’s just talk branding for just a second. Overall branding. Let’s say I started a blog, I sell a couple of eBooks, that kind of thing. What are your thoughts about how I brand my business, my messaging, that kind of thing?
Emma Lee Bates 41:36
Oh, boy. Well, I think online at this point, it really is all about personality. There are brands that are not necessarily somebody who is the person behind it. But I think a lot of the sort of growing trend is that you need to be out there and you need to be present if you’re going to be growing this online business.
So, really my biggest advice for that is – be yourself. You’re going to find your people. You don’t have to become this strange persona that you’re not. If you are yourself and you speak your truth, you will find your people and you will build your audience. You can serve them well.
You don’t have to have 300 million people in an audience in order to have a successful business. You can be small. You can be niched down, and you can serve your audience well. You can create the things that they really want from you and you can make a great living.
Jillian Leslie 42:43
I love that. I love that. And therefore, what you are saying is, for you introverts, and I put myself in that category, although now I am calling myself an ambivert.
You got to put your face out there and you’ve got a risk. And again, like what we were talking about, which is starting your online business will push you to venture into areas of discomfort, embarrassment, shame, all of that.
And again, be kind to yourself as you embark on this journey. But I personally think it is such a worthwhile journey.
Emma Lee Bates 43:25
It is such a worthwhile journey. And being able to meet people from all over the world who are passionate about the things that you’re passionate about, I mean that’s unbelievable to me.
I grew up and still live in a small New Hampshire town and I have befriended people from all over the world. I love that so much. Working a regular nine to five job, I never would have been able to do that.
Jillian Leslie 43:49
I personally also think that I get to help entrepreneurs create the lives that they’ve only dreamed about, and if I can be just the tiniest little rum on that journey, I feel so honored.
Emma Lee Bates 44:06
Jillian Leslie 44:08
Well, okay. Emma, tell people how to reach out to you, how to learn more about what you do. Remember, if you’re interested in sales pages and funnels and that kind of thing, Emma is your girl. So please share how people can reach you.
Emma Lee Bates 44:25
Okay. Well, so there are two places to reach me online now. My blog is EmmaLeeBates.com.
Jillian Leslie 44:32
Can you spell it?
Emma Lee Bates 44:34
Yeah. E-m-m-a-L-e-e-B-a-t-e-s. So, EmmaLeeBates.com. And then, my husband and I have started a new marketing agency, and that is StillRiseMarketing.com.
Jillian Leslie 44:48
Okay. And what is that? What do you guys offer there?
Emma Lee Bates 44:52
We are offering a wide variety of services. We are pretty much doing all aspects of funnel buildings. We do Facebook Ads. We do copywriting. We do landing page, sales page, website building. And we are diving into some other aspects that are not quite public yet but I will be excited to share soon.
Jillian Leslie 45:17
Perfect. Great. Okay. And how can people join your email list, which is how I found you.
Emma Lee Bates 45:24
Yeah, EmmaLeeBates.com. If you go there, I’ve got a bunch of awesome free stuff from sales page conversion trackers to headline formulas and all sorts of stuff. So, if you just go to the homepage, you’ll see some of them there.
Jillian Leslie 45:40
Well, Emma, this has been such a treat. Thank you so much for being on the show.
Emma Lee Bates 45:46
Thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed our talk so much.
Jillian Leslie 45:49
I hope you guys liked hearing from Emma. What it reinforced for me is the mantra. “Yes, know-thyself, but also know thy audience.” The better you know them, the better you can sell to them.
And if you can get it right, they will be happy to take out their credit cards and buy from you. So, experiment. Try different things. And ultimately, you will hit it if you are authentic and genuinely helpful.
Also, if you have not tried out MiloTree on your blog if you have a blog, and you have traffic, I promise MiloTree will grow your followers, your subscribers, your email list, or send people exactly where you want them to go.
So, head to MiloTree.com. Sign up for your account and get your first 30 days free. And you will see how easy it is to install. And I will see you here again next week.
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